] I don't profess to know anything about OATS, but who regulates that oath? At law, people swear in knowing that failing to abide by their word results in contempt of court and its subsequent repercussions. On the contrary, an organisation with unknown roots (or of even spurious origins for all we know) can just say what it likes about its members and their standards. At TouchArcade, we set our own very rigid standards. We still buy every game that we review which many sites don't and we only review games that we personally like and recommend, or games that we think our readers have an interest in, so as to keep them informed. And it's the testament of our very large, constantly growing and loyal following that we are succeeding in adhering to those standards. That's the only stamp of approval we can ever ask for.
No, that's still arguement #1. "I don't like freemium because it's __morally reprehensible__" We don't generally respond to conspiracy theorists because there's little you can say to convince them otherwise. Counter their argument and they come up with another until finally it comes down to "I just don't believe you." as JamesDean69 above. So, we try not to waste our time trying to convince people who simply don't believe what we are saying, so this will be my only response to the topic in this thread. And really, the best equally effective, and equally defensible counter argument is "JamesDean69 and SarcasticGamer work for an iPhone dev competitor and are just trying to bring down this dev's name and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. Deny it? I don't believe you." As for the relevant points: We split out the game model discussion because it's a big distraction, and obviously controversial. People who are playing WeRule obviously know the model and want to talk about the game itself. If you watch to bitch about the model in general, here's your chance in this thread. Ngmoco offers this site no current financial support, and our ad sales are separate from our editorial content. So, the writers/editors don't know what ads are coming until they appear. Ngmoco is not the single game company that gets the most coverage on TA if you actually count up the articles, but they do get a lot of coverage. They are a major 100% iPhone game developer that has received $35 million in funding. As such, they represent iPhone gaming as much as any other single company does. The Eliminate Pro thread has 19040 replies and represents the single most popular game thread on the forums, by over 14,000 posts. We cover what we find interesting and what we feel our readers find interesting, and our readers (including everyone reading this thread) are interested in Ngmoco. Re reasons about being or not being in OATS: explained here - Are you suggesting if we joined OATS that you would suddenly believe us? Yeah, I didn't think so. Our editorial policies are clearly written out here: http://toucharcade.com/toucharcade-advertising-and-editorial-policies/ so you either believe it or don't. (OATS has no way to actually police their member sites) arn
Hahaha and what company am I supposed to represent? BTW the Eliminate thread is being kept alive by approx 4 members talking to each other and about a few stray post complaining about the lag. Yes most of your readers are interested in Ngmoco but majority of them are interested in a negative way!
First off Arn. Im not a conspiracy theorist or work for another developer. Just trying to get to a truth. And yes i would believe you. The fact that you dismiss OATS says a lot. If its such BS, why do many other iphone game sites belong to it and stand by it so faithfully? Just seems like you guys really dont like people who say negative things about Ngmoco. and just because i dont believe something yiou said doesnt mean i wont beieve anything you said. And to pigeon hole some of us into a group of "we are just conspiracy theorists trying to bring u down" is childish and ridiculous. and we arent "bitching". We just smell some bullshit on this site lately and are calling u on it and judging by the way u guys respond many of us are getting a vibe from u that isnt "Kosher".
Why would you put so much trust into OATS? It's not like they police their sites to make sure they are sticking to their word. Even if TouchArcade was being bought out by ngmoco to say only good things about the company, TouchArcade could still join OATS, and it'd make no difference.
If you had actually read arn's reply you'll know that he didn't say it was BS, but that it was unquantifiable and of unknown origins to us, irrespective of who supports it. In any case, the goodwill and reputation that TA has garnered for itself through our own hard work certainly surpasses anything an outside source could offer in terms of credibility. Personally I think if we ever get to the stage where we need a third party to tell us that we're honest and reliable and can't just look to our own readers, then we're in trouble already. That's not to say those supporting OATS are bad or anything, but they obviously have a different view on these things to me.
Hi, You seriously think they do not need to advertise? I do understand your defense of the administration, especially inlight of the fact you have a review on the front page of the site. Not saying you are not objective or honest in your post but the above fact does give one pause when considering the weight we place in your post. If ngmoco does not need to advertise, why the press releases? These are forms of advertising and are sent to sites such as this one when they have something to promote, or advertise. I do not know, or really care if the administration here gives preferential treatment to ngmoco but you referring to those who question it as "conspiracy theorists" just undermines any weight I give the rest of your argument. David
You'll note that by reading arn's post above, ngmoco does not have any paid advertising with us, nor have I personally seen them advertise elsewhere now that the freemium model is in. You are right in that press releases such as previews and the like ARE advertising and are given to websites, but in our case they must comply with our tenants linked to above, and are definitely never paid for. You'll find that most, if not all sites post them out of sheer newsworthiness rather than any sense of loyalty. If you protract my train of thought a little further you'll see that what I was inferring was that if there is no incentive to bias, why would anyone do so? It's a silly argument to begin with. You can appreciate how trying it is to see a colleague being set upon over such a nonsensical thing as that. I wasn't so much stooping to name calling as trying to simply alert them to their narrow-mindedness. But take it as you will, I've said my piece.
Is it really of unknown origin to you? you honestly have no knowledge of this? I disagree w your argument. everyone has to answer to a level of standards. The FDA, The Broadcasting standards commission, etc. these boards and commitees are created to ensure this. If we all just took a companies word for things we'd be in trouble. If Phizer puts out a drug they cant just say well we say we wouldnt make it if it was harmful to you. We monitor ourselves. They cudnt do that. Maybe thats an extreme example comparing a video game site to a drug company but the idea is the same. It just seems like a really honest thing to belong to and it could only add to your credibility. saying our own standards and credibility is all we need is ridiculous. Sorry its just how i feel. We can agree to disagree. I love your site. I do. I REALLY DO. I'm on it all the time. You are always the first to report stuff and your articles are great and your forums are the best. Some of just were getting a vibe about this subject and questioned you on it and it seems like you guys are very jumpy and dont respond well to any question or criticism.
so far what I've gotten from this thread is that NGMOCO sucks because of freemium, Hodapp kisses NGMOCO butt, and Big ALbie returned to TA to peel bananas. Personally I think NGMOCO is overrated. I just don't think their games are that good. Except um, the one Hodapp recommended in the "best TD's thread"....Star Defense... thats the only one I like.
Hi, I think I am moving to observer instead of an active participant in this thread. After reading the last few pages and feeling I have a pretty firm grasp of common sense, I would like to keep my thoughts private, from here on and retire from this thread. I will check in to keep up but I think my participation is at an end. I look forward to reading the many interesting posts and thoughts shared. David
Hehe, the best of intentions, right? I'm just posting in my personal capacity, I didn't like that Hodapp was getting a grilling for no sound reason and I sought to back him up. At least it seems now that tempers are calmed and a more rational discussion can take place here, which I fully support.
True that.. me too. Punching out also guys. No hard feelings to anyone were intended. I will continue to support this site as i always have.
As an OATS member I though I'd chime in on this. Firstly, I don't see any evidence to support the thought that TA are anything but an honest and unbiased site. Having love for a particular game or developer does not mean they are profiting from it. However, some sites do, and it was for this reason that OATS was started. OATS was created as a reaction to a few iPhone news sites offering App developers reviews in return for money. We found this to be unacceptable and a few sites (including 148Apps, STP, TouchGen, and theAppera) decided to rally against this by creating a pledge. As Arn correctly stated, this is hard-to-impossible to police, so instead we rely on developers and users alike to report any concerns they have with sites (members and non members). Recently a member site was in violation of the rules, which was more of a misunderstanding between the site and a developer, where the line between review and advertising was blurred somewhat. The site was then asked to distance business with editorial. What OATS does benefit from is the community ethic between the member sites. Recently a developer propositioned many of the member site with $300-$1000 in return for a positive review we all flagged up with each other the problem and soon put the dev in his place, not without much abuse towards many member sites from the dev first. You may have seen an article about this same problem on PocketGamer. OATS is purely a way of letting the readers know that our content is not biased in anyway. Any site that wishes to join is reviewed by the founding sites and checked before being approved for membership. However, any site that wishes not to join is in no way admitting to practising anything but honest news and reviews. So don't assume that just because they do not fly the OATS flag that they are up to no good. TouchArcade were invited to join but for their own reasons they felt it wasn't for them. I don't think it warrants accusations of bias or backhand tactics just because it is not a member. just my 2 cents
no the freemium model allows no jailbroken ipod or iphone users to get the games which are alot of them
Wow, I haven't checked this thread for a bit, and it all goes haywire! There have been some interesting arguments, points/counterpoints among the chaff. I just have a few points to throw in FWIW: 1) I personally dislike the freemium model. It just feels "cheap" to me somehow...almost like the whole "Your first taste is free, then when you get hooked we'll bend you over". On top of this, I just don't find ngmoco's games all that compelling. Chalk it up to taste. 2) I have no ill will or animosity against ngmoco as a developer for going this route, as Albie said, I'll just not play the games. No skin off my or ngmoco's nose. 3) I must agree with the poster who mentioned that the Eliminate thread (and I'm sure will be the case with We Rule and other freemium titles, not to mention Pocket God) is heavily posted in, but mostly by people who spend all of their time in those threads almost exclusively. I don't really think this is a true measure of its general popularity. 4) I visit this site daily. I don't have any personal relationships with anyone on here other that some nice chats through the forum. I've NEVER felt that this site is modified/administrated/officially reviewed by anyone who has a personal bias. Taste and interests are something that we cannot begrudge someone. If some mods/admins/reviewers here like ngmoco's games, so what? No other site I've been to has close to the community this one has, and frankly I feel the need to stick up for them. 5) As to the O.A.T.S. situation, the fact that TA doesn't subscribe means nothing to me. I'm sure they have good intentions, but even they admit they're a paper tiger. This site speaks for itself. It has a solid, earned reputation. Quite frankly, if they were more like STP or Touchgen I would visit much less.
I will just say, I had never heard of OATS (other than the food) before this thread. I don't care that TA is not a part of it, as I base my decisions off what looks good to me and what other trusted members have stated. The reviews just give me another idea of what a game is like. TA is pretty much the only game site I visit now because it offers all of the information I need. As for the main topic, I am not a huge fan of Free model system but I have no problem with ngmoco as a company. I really wish they would also offer a pay a certain amount to have the full experience for those of us that don't like the current model but I guess that would defeat the purpose.
